Discussion & Poll. Legalized Abortion.

[TheMayor]

Obviously this is a very sensitive subject. So while views are VERY personal, I thought I would share something i've been pondering in deep thought.

Now the Rules/Points of this discussion

1. My personal views are private and confidential. I will NOT share them. It is up to YOU if you want to share yours and I will respect your views and will not reply to them.
2. This is something that's been bouncing around my head. I just wanted to share it. If you care to share, it is up to you.
3. This topic will not affect me personally as i'm not going to be a daddy in any way/shape/form except for my goldfish...who is not preggers.
4. Poll results will be PRIVATE. No screen names will show. If it does, Mike could you fix it for me?


Now to the question that I am pondering:

If abortion is illegal all 50 states....

1) Will abortions come to a complete stop?
2) Will abortions be performed in an unsafe manner at unsanitary locations?
3) Will there be massive demonstrations and civil unrest?

[Shinigami052]

I have no problems sharing my views on abortion but to answer your question i don't have to share them.

I think and can almost guarantee that if abortion were made illegal union wide, they would be performed in an unsafe and unsanitary manner. The fact that abortions are illegal will not stop those who want them from getting them (think pot or steroids or any other drug or illegal substance).

The fact that anything is illegal does not stop people from doing it. It just drives it underground with no regulations on it.

[ChroniC588]

abortions is a very touchy subject. It can explode when you get a pro-choice and pro-lifer in the same room.

But I am here to watch when the pro-choice and pro-lifer show up in this debate....bring it on!

:popcorn:

[Sgt_Ox]

abortions is a very touchy subject. It can explode when you get a pro-choice and pro-lifer in the same room.

But I am here to watch when the pro-choice and pro-lifer show up in this debate....bring it on!

:popcorn:

I hate it when it gets to that point. Because it's either for or against leaving no room for middle ground. Which is where I lay.

[ChroniC588]

I hate it when it gets to that point. Because it's either for or against leaving no room for middle ground. Which is where I lay.

but it's still good fun to watch. I love it when it gets all Biblical and people start throwing out Bible quotes...it eventually ends with a Jerry Falwell pundit.:mopedscoot:

[Rob]

Its a personal choice... and the supreme court ruled on this ages ago.

WTF?

Now... mandatory sterilization for convicted drug addicts? THAT I'm for!

[zff]

Now... mandatory sterilization for convicted drug addicts? THAT I'm for!Why limit it to drug addicts? There's plenty of people who should be on that list! :D

[corytomo]

Haha yeah, sterlize the stupid, the poor, and the addicts. hehehe

Abortion will probably become like it did before legalization... dirty docs in hidden clinics doing it unsafely.

[TheMayor]

I don't remember if I read it or watched it somewhere but I thought there was a city giving out free vasectomies and (I dont know what you call the female version...histerectomy?) to drug addicts.

Im positive there was a place. Or maybe its all in my head.

[twowheels]

Ok I'll start:

Pro-choice!!

[Sgt_Ox]

Ok I'll start:

Pro-choice!!

Agreed, given that mother herself kills her child then we'll see how much heart she has. I say it's the easy way out to allow someone else to kill your own children.

[ChroniC588]

Why limit it to drug addicts? There's plenty of people who should be on that list! :D

top of the list of those who need to get castrated are child predators (pedos).

And they should do it with a dull butter knife.

[ChroniC588]

Agreed, given that mother herself kills her child then we'll see how much heart she has. I say it's the easy way out to allow someone else to kill your own children.

dude...you be surprised how many women out there have had multiple abortions and it didnt phase em one bit.

I know a girl who has had 3 abortions and 3 kids.

Not a tear from her eye. One of the kids who was born...his baby shower was almost a year to do the day after she aborted another kid.:hypo:

[Turboed Dragon]

abortion. whats the point? if you dont want a kid, use protection or dont even do it.

i can't see why women would get them in the 1st place. i guess the only reason why i'm like this is because my mom had 2 of them before i was born. so... yeah.

but i guess i would of been all for it when i was in high school. that was when i found out that i got my ex preggy. now my huge mistake is 9 years old and i havent meet her yet :(

[ChroniC588]

abortion. whats the point? if you dont want a kid, use protection or dont even do it.

i can't see why women would get them in the 1st place. i guess the only reason why i'm like this is because my mom had 2 of them before i was born. so... yeah.

but i guess i would of been all for it when i was in high school. that was when i found out that i got my ex preggy. now my huge mistake is 9 years old and i havent meet her yet :(

I think the problem is woman not using protection. Its the man who doesnt wanna use protection. And often times its the men who make the women get the abortion because they dont wanna grow up and be a man about it and take responsibility.

Cant place all the blame on the women. Alot of punk ass losers who claim to call themselves a "man" aint nothing more than a wuss ass chicken who cant handle his own business and take charge when he needs to.:thumbsdown:

[Turboed Dragon]

I think the problem is woman not using protection. Its the man who doesnt wanna use protection. And often times its the men who make the women get the abortion because they dont wanna grow up and be a man about it and take responsibility.

Cant place all the blame on the women. Alot of punk ass losers who claim to call themselves a "man" aint nothing more than a wuss ass chicken who cant handle his own business and take charge when he needs to.:thumbsdown:

that hits alittle home to me. :( :ohnoes: forgot to add in girls use some kind of birthcontrol.

[Turboed Dragon]

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/97/261204568_6473ec9667.jpg
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/d/dd/Military_Birth_Control_Glasses.jpg/800px-Military_Birth_Control_Glasses.jpg

bcg :D birth control glasses

Summary
Military Birth Control Glasses (also known as RPGs -- Rape Prevention Glasses) circa mid 1990s.

[twowheels]

Agreed, given that mother herself kills her child then we'll see how much heart she has. I say it's the easy way out to allow someone else to kill your own children.

Aahh I see bait for debate!! I won't bite, I can tell I'm surrounded by pro-lifers here.

[ArchangelX]

Umm...yeah...this goes in the other forum, definitely. :gapteeth:

[Shinigami052]

Pro-Choice here. I'm w/ u Juan

[kombi731]

I think the problem is woman not using protection. Its the man who doesnt wanna use protection. And often times its the men who make the women get the abortion because they dont wanna grow up and be a man about it and take responsibility.

Cant place all the blame on the women. Alot of punk ass losers who claim to call themselves a "man" aint nothing more than a wuss ass chicken who cant handle his own business and take charge when he needs to.:thumbsdown:
ARe these the prolifers that become prochoice when its THEIR gf

[Shinigami052]

I think the problem is woman not using protection. Its the man who doesnt wanna use protection. And often times its the men who make the women get the abortion because they dont wanna grow up and be a man about it and take responsibility.

Cant place all the blame on the women. Alot of punk ass losers who claim to call themselves a "man" aint nothing more than a wuss ass chicken who cant handle his own business and take charge when he needs to.:thumbsdown:


Okay what about women who are raped? Should they not be able to have abortions? Birth control isn't 100% what if it fails? What if they are responsible and willing but having the child would kill the mother?

You are all too quick to jump to conclusions. I've seen in your recent posts that you've become a lot more judgmental and hot-headed. You don't seem to be thinking straight and I think you should take some time to gather your thoughts and think things through.

[ChroniC588]

Kombi, Shin...I am neither pro-life or pro-choice. I am in the third camp where I defer it to the women to decide what they want. As a man, I have no valid opinion on this topic.

I am saying quite a few of those unwanted pregnancies are because of stupid guys who decided to knock up their gf, then dump her.

I am very harsh on the men in this society for their ambivalence and lax attitudes towards being more responsible when having relationships with women. Its because of them, guys get a bad rap in this country.:slap:

A man takes responsibility for all his actions and deals with the consequences. Wuss ass losers dont. And we got way too many K-Feds in this country.:jail:

That being said...there is an excellent solution to this whole problem. All women should learn how to take it IDB. Now if women would just be more open-minded...:fingersx:

[MLE]

I'm a pro-choice person.

I think that both men and women should be responsible and be able to do the right thing. If you don't want to have children yet, then use protection...at the very least, a condom for the guy or the female condom for her. Now that said, I know there are those who are allergic to latex and can't use condoms...well then, I guess you should really think about what you are doing and if it's worth the possibility of getting pregnant or getting a girl pregnant. Birth control pills are another option, but like someone else said, those are not 100% and what if you react badly to them? It's a touchy subject at the very least and dangerously heated at its worst, but definitely something that should be talked about.

I tend to find myself in the position of if it's rape, incest, danger to the mother, or the child will not survive, then there should be the option to have it done. If it's because you were "in the heat of passion" and now have second thoughts, well, then...not a good reason. Life is not a commodity that can just be "gotten rid of" because it's an inconvenience to you...of course, what about those 13 year olds who mess around and end up pregnant? Should she be allowed to have an abortion? In my opinion, yes...she is still too young both physically and mentally to be able to go through the rigors of pregnancy and labor. It would be traumatic for her and what would we be saying to her as a society? "Sorry kid, you got pregnant so now you have to deal with it." It would be like punishing a child for breaking the cookie jar for the rest of their life. Also, in that situation, I think the boy/guy who got her pregnant should be at the abortion to witness it and watch it being done right in front of him. It took two to tango and she should not be the only one to have to bear the weight of an unplanned pregnancy. By requiring him to be there and watch it, I think it would make a lot of boys/guys think twice about trying to "get a girl" without any thought to the possible consequences afterward.

Our society puts too much of the responsibility on the female when it comes to abortions and pregnancies...it took two to get pregnant, so why can't both of them be responsible for it? If she is one of those types who likes to throw caution to the wind and gets pregnant, then gets an abortion, and then goes out and get preggers again and then gets another abortion, etc. over and over, then I think there should be a law that requires her to get her tubes tied (something that is reversible, should she really want children later). On the same token, if he can't keep his thing in check, then there should be a law that requires him to get a vasectomy. It's too easy for the guy to get off easy because he doesn't have to be pregnant, but why should it be that way?

Anyway, I'm supposed to be asleep...it's nearly 3AM, so if this makes no sense, then blame it on the zombie-state typing. I'll read this again when I get up and see if I need to make some clarifications...ZZZZzzzzzzz......

[Hee_Haw]

but i guess i would of been all for it when i was in high school. that was when i found out that i got my ex preggy. now my huge mistake is 9 years old and i havent meet her yet :(

Do you still consider her a HUGE MISTAKE? Or do you consider her as your daughter, your offspring? You know that you can still do the "right thing", and try to do something to bring this open-end to some closure, of course it depends on whether or not her mommy (your ex) wants her to know you as her father. I'd try, at the very least.

I guess Em really put a voice to my sentiments.
I guess you should really think about what you are doing and if it's worth the possibility of getting pregnant or getting a girl pregnant...

I tend to find myself in the position of if it's rape, incest, danger to the mother, or the child will not survive, then there should be the option to have it done.

If it's because you were "in the heat of passion" and now have second thoughts, well, then...not a good reason. Life is not a commodity that can just be "gotten rid of" because it's an inconvenience to you...of course, what about those 13 year olds who mess around and end up pregnant? Should she be allowed to have an abortion? In my opinion, yes...she is still too young both physically and mentally to be able to go through the rigors of pregnancy and labor. It would be traumatic for her and what would we be saying to her as a society? "Sorry kid, you got pregnant so now you have to deal with it." It would be like punishing a child for breaking the cookie jar for the rest of their life. Also, in that situation, I think the boy/guy who got her pregnant should be at the abortion to witness it and watch it being done right in front of him. It took two to tango and she should not be the only one to have to bear the weight of an unplanned pregnancy. By requiring him to be there and watch it, I think it would make a lot of boys/guys think twice about trying to "get a girl" without any thought to the possible consequences afterward.

Our society puts too much of the responsibility on the female when it comes to abortions and pregnancies...it took two to get pregnant, so why can't both of them be responsible for it?
Marry me. :flowers02: I keed! :)

That pretty much sums it up.

I am very harsh on the men in this society for their ambivalence and lax attitudes towards being more responsible when having relationships with women. Its because of them, guys get a bad rap in this country. :slap:
Agreed, very much so. It's no secret that I'm an advocate of the campaign of PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY. Life is not a video or computer game where you can just "turn it off" when you're done... whether it's about responsible driving (not racing /speeding on the streets), or consuming alcohol (not getting plastered and doing something dumb), to sex issues (keep the lizard tied up, or be ready to be a daddy).


I guess what the bottom line about the contention in debating abortion is the difference between abortion as a life-saving measure (for the mom's sake), and abortion as a convenient means of birth-control from a lifestyle that takes sex ONLY for the selfish pleasure part, as though pregnancy and a baby were some nasty "by-product" of getting one's rocks off.

ANY parent can understand how valuable a life is.... even a tiny, unnoticed one. My little girl, just this week, brought me a picture of a heart with a smiley face on it, and said, "thank you for being my daddy". :cry3:

That picture is in on my office wall. Just try to take it down. :14428:

I could whip out my Bible and go all Pat Robertson on this, but I think it goes beyond an issue of faith; this is simply a bit of moral responsibility. Good debate.

[Sgt_Ox]

dude...you be surprised how many women out there have had multiple abortions and it didnt phase em one bit.

I know a girl who has had 3 abortions and 3 kids.

Not a tear from her eye. One of the kids who was born...his baby shower was almost a year to do the day after she aborted another kid.:hypo:

No I'm actually not surprised that a woman can get 3 or 4 abortions done in her lifetime as long as those babies were in the early stages of development. This meaning the baby was so small that the mother couldn't feel movement. It's the abortions at the 4+ month mark that really bug me. Most mothers don't feel connected to thier child inside until they can actually feel them move inside. Once you get to that point and mother still decides to get an abortion then she has some serious mental issues to have evaluated.

[Sgt_Ox]

Aahh I see bait for debate!! I won't bite, I can tell I'm surrounded by pro-lifers here.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHahahah......What's the matter? You chickensh*t or something?

[Sgt_Ox]

Okay what about women who are raped? Should they not be able to have abortions? Birth control isn't 100% what if it fails? What if they are responsible and willing but having the child would kill the mother?

You are all too quick to jump to conclusions. I've seen in your recent posts that you've become a lot more judgmental and hot-headed. You don't seem to be thinking straight and I think you should take some time to gather your thoughts and think things through.

That's where I separate myself from the pro-life and side with the pro-choice. As I said I feel there is room for middle ground in this debate. I hate the completely one sided arguments.

And for the record even McCain feels the same about abortions, being that there is room for stipulations.

[Shinigami052]

Heh I think we had an abortion debate before. Every time I debate about abortion, no one can counter my argument and it just kinda dies or people just ignore it. I've thought a lot about my argument and I feel it's a good one so maybe people just choose to ignore a good argument and follow their own ideas and pretend a counter doesn't exist.

[spike109u]

I'm pro-choice. Personally, I think that abortion is just a more effective form of birth control, as long as it is performed in the early stages. The moral argument is somewhat important, but doesn't really matter that much in the end. What it boils down to is this: If you use birth control, you aren't ready to have a child. Should something happen that causes you to become pregnant anyway, abortion will serve the same purpose as birth control. It also acts as a way to remove pregnancies that should never have happened, such as those caused by rape. There's really not much more to it than that. Everything else just over complicates the matter.

[ChroniC588]

Heh I think we had an abortion debate before. Every time I debate about abortion, no one can counter my argument and it just kinda dies or people just ignore it. I've thought a lot about my argument and I feel it's a good one so maybe people just choose to ignore a good argument and follow their own ideas and pretend a counter doesn't exist.

That's kinda a confident statement there....

Considering Roe herself recanted support for Roe v Wade (she sought an abortion in 1973 due to a pregnancy stemming from rape).

I usually stop bothering continuing a debate for two reasons:

1) the person responds w/o even considering ur points...basically just repeating themselves and their original view.

2) they ignore the argument and points all together and just attack you as an individual.

Part of the reason I got tired of FH. #2 almost always popped up. Somehow they think they will win any argument the moment they call you gay, racist, traitor, terrorist, etc....anything they can think of in the book. They got it down to a single word as their rebuttal.

Essentially they are the same kind of ppl who if they actually got into an argument in real life would just end it by swearing over and over at you F*** you...F*** you...because they have nothing else to say.

[Shinigami052]

I usually stop bothering continuing a debate for two reasons:

1) the person responds w/o even considering ur points...basically just repeating themselves and their original view.

2) they ignore the argument and points all together and just attack you as an individual.



Two conversation killers right there. I hate them!

My insight into the situation:

I'm pro-choice if you would like to put me into a category of life vs choice. I am not FOR killing a "child" or a fetus or anything. To make my point I will put forth this definition:

an animal or plant that lives in or on a host (another animal or plant); it obtains nourishment from the host without benefiting or killing the host

I separated the definition by bold-ing the parts I want to focus on and the parts relevant to this discussion:

an animal that lives in a host; it obtains nourishment from the host without benefiting or killing the host

I'm sure by now you know what it is I am defining. If you are able to put the connotations of the word aside and look at the definition itself, you will see that this describes a fetus. That means if the mother wishes to remove the fetus she should be able to. It is not the fault of the mother that the fetus is not self sustaining.

Would you berate a dog's owner for getting rid of ticks? The tick can not survive without the dog but is that the fault of the dog? It is the nature of the tick to not be able to survive without the dog. Thus one should not berate a mother for wanting to remove a fetus. Is it, essentially, the same thing.

This is my thinking. Please do not flame me. In the past it's been hard for people to understand my logic.

[ChroniC588]

hmm...I would avoid using the world "animal" when describing the fetus.

for "animals" actually have rights...sometimes more rights than fetuses in this country.

Starving a puppy is a felony...but its legal to suck out a fetus and rip it to pieces.:hypo:

Just ask Michael Vick...:wedgie:
http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1133/952926108_1fea83eeec.jpg

[Shinigami052]

animal in the way i'm using it is in terms of it's scientific classification. Basically everything that isn't a plant is an animal (for the most part).