Video of US Friendly Fire Incident in 2003.

[ArchangelX]

And the accompanying story:

http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/200702/s1841902.htm

Personally, I don't think the pilots were at total fault...they asked if there were friendlies in the area, and command told them no. So sad...they're out there to do a job, it must be horrible for them, and the deceased and wounded's family. Such a horrible thing.

For everyone that *****es about this though...war is war, and war is hell. This is one of many reasons why.

Part 1:

AV_16PdWnBo

Part 2:
NFdJ4X_wWj0

[Latka]

It's one of the many reasons that attack pilots are supposed to go through extensive friend / foe identification stuff. A buddy of mine was an A-10 guy from Battle Creek, MI - told me the horror stories as guys would mis-identify friendly tanks during training and then laugh about it.

The pilots, the FAC, and probably some others are to blame. Some poor English kid bore the brunt of their sloppy actions and died because of it.

[Sgt_Ox]

ahh too many possibilities left in the open, I can't conclude that it's the Pilots fault.

[Udrivecrap]

aw man, that's messed up.....how can that happen with all the advanced stuff we have?

[Sgt_Ox]

aw man, that's messed up.....how can that happen with all the advanced stuff we have?
It's apparently communication error. A combined central command is suppose to plot and map out locations of friendly's. Any advancment requires notification. Theses are the guys with the uber high security clearances, they pass down intel to forces in operation.

For all we know the possibility of the fault being with the Brits advancement is very possible. Failing to notify that you're in movement can cost you your life.

[ArchangelX]

Ditto that. People don't think of all that when they watch things like this. Those guns, when they open up, are just scary.

[Latka]

ahh too many possibilities left in the open, I can't conclude that it's the Pilots fault.

It is the pilot's ability to be able to distinguish friendly from enemy armor. They're flying a plane specifically designed to destroy armor afterall.

My buddy (a Hog driver) told me that they would go through sessions all the time where they were shown silhouettes of tanks from all angles - they *have* to be able to identify them. A one second burst from the GAU-8 firing depleted uranium (DU) rounds is enough to defeat *any* armored vehicle on the planet currently.

[Sgt_Ox]

It is the pilot's ability to be able to distinguish friendly from enemy armor. They're flying a plane specifically designed to destroy armor afterall.

My buddy (a Hog driver) told me that they would go through sessions all the time where they were shown silhouettes of tanks from all angles - they *have* to be able to identify them. A one second burst from the GAU-8 firing depleted uranium (DU) rounds is enough to defeat *any* armored vehicle on the planet currently.
But in this instance it is misidenticiation of the orange flags which made the appearance of missles is what I gatherd to confuse the pilots. I've seen pilots and crew chiefs go through this training of identification, but when it comes down to it all, I seriously doubt they're going to be able to indentify everything on the fly especially at high altitudes.

[Sgt_Ox]

Ditto that. People don't think of all that when they watch things like this. Those guns, when they open up, are just scary.
no because they only see what's in front of them, and not think of everything that lead up to the incident.

[Latka]

But in this instance it is misidenticiation of the orange flags which made the appearance of missles is what I gatherd to confuse the pilots. I've seen pilots and crew chiefs go through this training of identification, but when it comes down to it all, I seriously doubt they're going to be able to indentify everything on the fly especially at high altitudes.

Unfortunately the orange flags were placed on coalition vehicles near the front to identify them as friendlies.

CAS aircraft don't fly high like the other guys... I guess I would agree more if they were F-15 guys or something....but these are A-10s. Low level is their bread and butter.

It's unfortunate that it happened, but apparently these guys were "bingo" fuel (time to go home). There was a Major flying on the wing of a LtCol, and the light bird decided that they were going to shoot something before they went home. Sounds like there were quite a few problems that day that led up to them lighting up a friendly vehicle.

...and who has "orange" missles? It seems like these guys had been flying around a long time without shooting anything and were just a bit too eager to waste something before they went home.

From the video "I've got a four ship - looks like we have orange panels on them though..." and then later when they're talking about where they are POP35 says, "...look like they have orange panels on them though..." then, "...they've got something orange on top of them."

Their altitude looks to be 10,000 to 12,000 feet while they were talking about all of this.

The fact that one of the guys brought up the orange panels 3 different times makes me really mad. Nobody thought that they should take a step back after someone questioned it 3 times?

That's how people get killed. This is a perfect example of it.

[Sgt_Ox]

Unfortunately the orange flags were placed on coalition vehicles near the front to identify them as friendlies.

CAS aircraft don't fly high like the other guys... I guess I would agree more if they were F-15 guys or something....but these are A-10s. Low level is their bread and butter.

It's unfortunate that it happened, but apparently these guys were "bingo" fuel (time to go home). There was a Major flying on the wing of a LtCol, and the light bird decided that they were going to shoot something before they went home. Sounds like there were quite a few problems that day that led up to them lighting up a friendly vehicle.

...and who has "orange" missles? It seems like these guys had been flying around a long time without shooting anything and were just a bit too eager to waste something before they went home.

From the video "I've got a four ship - looks like we have orange panels on them though..." and then later when they're talking about where they are POP35 says, "...look like they have orange panels on them though..." then, "...they've got something orange on top of them."

Their altitude looks to be 10,000 to 12,000 feet while they were talking about all of this.

The fact that one of the guys brought up the orange panels 3 different times makes me really mad. Nobody thought that they should take a step back after someone questioned it 3 times?

That's how people get killed. This is a perfect example of it.
I agree that the possibility of them wanted to expend ammo is possible.

However speaking in terms of identification, what we all don't know is who was the flight leader. We can assume it's LtCol which rightfully so should be, but seeing flight operations radio com between a group of aircraft the leader speaks back to base on a different freq. Pilots change channels to talk shit to each other while in air. The flight leader is responsible for communicating back to base with flight progress.

From what I gathered (and I'll have to listen to it again) they called it in to try and identify if they were friendly's. They were given the green light, since base had no intel to report until 5 minutes later.

What I see here is failure to communicate properly. Anyone could be at fault and though it could appear to be the pilots the possibilities are endless because facts haven't been stated.

Orange flags or not, you were a Marine attention to detail, if something seemed out of the ordinary and didn't have proper authority it was grounds to be lit up. By the sound of it these pilots weren't briefed about whatever implemented protocols that the ground forces were using (i.e. orange flags) any one can put up an orange flag and claim to be friendly unless you pass the proper authentication right? Hence my stance on lack of Communication. Could be the S2's fault for not reporting protocols.

Yes the orange flags made me question at first but when you think about it, enemies in the past have tried impose us or present something that could cloud our judgement. It's why we authenticate things and communication of any advancement or actions for that matter is pertinent.

Protocol for us (when I was with Recon) when guarding the rear was to radio in to the COC of any unusual activity. We couldn't fire until given the green light from COC. Pilots here in this case have practice the very thing that I can recall training from with Recon.

[dnf]

damn that sucks.

b

[Latka]

However speaking in terms of identification, what we all don't know is who was the flight leader.


It doesn't really matter if the Major or the LtCol was in charge. Someone had to be. We're not talking about a training flight over Kansas here!


Orange flags or not, you were a Marine attention to detail, if something seemed out of the ordinary and didn't have proper authority it was grounds to be lit up. By the sound of it these pilots weren't briefed about whatever implemented protocols that the ground forces were using (i.e. orange flags) any one can put up an orange flag and claim to be friendly unless you pass the proper authentication right? Hence my stance on lack of Communication. Could be the S2's fault for not reporting protocols.


This was right after the invasion, so we were dealing with the conventional Iraqi military. Sure - anyone can put up an orange flag, but don't you think that as an attack pilot it might be in your best interest to be sure you're shooting at?

I agree with you about the protocol of talking with "someone else" if something you're seeing doesn't seem right - but these guys were 10,000 feet up... it's not like their position was being charged by an unknown vehicle or something. They had every opportunity *not* to fire - the ultimate decision has to rest with the one who's pulling the trigger. In this case they failed to correctly identify BRITISH LIGHT ARMOR and someone died.

[Sgt_Ox]

It doesn't really matter if the Major or the LtCol was in charge. Someone had to be. We're not talking about a training flight over Kansas here!



This was right after the invasion, so we were dealing with the conventional Iraqi military. Sure - anyone can put up an orange flag, but don't you think that as an attack pilot it might be in your best interest to be sure you're shooting at?

I agree with you about the protocol of talking with "someone else" if something you're seeing doesn't seem right - but these guys were 10,000 feet up... it's not like their position was being charged by an unknown vehicle or something. They had every opportunity *not* to fire - the ultimate decision has to rest with the one who's pulling the trigger. In this case they failed to correctly identify BRITISH LIGHT ARMOR and someone died.

I just re-watched the video thoroughly

I think the ramification if it wasn't friendly and they were to let them go were too great. They made a decision and so they have to live with that.

Besides watch the vid again. Manila Hotel clears them and confirms no friendlys in that area. It is a communication error. It appears that Manila has the intel on them all along and tasked these A10's since they were in the area. Manila was coordinating arty already before these Hogs spot the targets. Popov confirms the targe size and location and Manila confirms that it matches their intel on the targets.

For all we know some forward observer misidentified and passed on bad intel to Manila. But my gathering is that Manila was targeting them all along based on their intel. The Hogs provided ariel observation to spot their arty impact. Watch it again you'll catch it all in the beginning.

It is a f*cked up situation but I won't hold the pilots entirely at fault, this is a classic case of communication error.

[Sgt_Ox]

It doesn't really matter if the Major or the LtCol was in charge. Someone had to be. We're not talking about a training flight over Kansas here!
My intent of that was to bring about the possibilites that there are convo's that we didn't catch and to try and identify who's plane we were looking through. The 2 hogs were speaking to each other on a private line. The main comm link overides it if they have it selected. Ideally the flight leader will have this override selected then he passes on info to the rest of the planes. This prevents too much chatter and frees up the line for other flights that need to speak to the COC. If we were listening to the cockpit of the flight leader then we may have heard everything, if not then we may have been hearing only parts of the convo since it is a selected option.

I've co-piloted a CH-46 and my CO was piloting at the time (incentive flight for NCO of the quarter). He was speaking to Air Traffic Control and clicked me in so I could listen. The whole time I never knew that he could hear the other traffic. In other words he had me on selective monitoring.

[Latka]

Ox I think you're missing an important point - at no time were the Hogs cleared hot on a target. It's a decision they made for themselves.

Who has "orange missles" in this world? In a combat zone, who would put something ORANGE on their vehicle? Doesn't strike you as something that may be out of the ordinary? Besides - these guys are in the air - they see them going to a village, they can call on ground forces to come check them out later.

I don't think it was a communication error of the FAC to say that there were no friendlies in the area. It was sloppy work at best because there *were* friendlies there.

If the US knew about it since 2003 and covered it up ... well, it'd be like all the other things that have been forcibly uncovered on this war.

"Blue on blue" incidents happen. Hell, ask the Tillman family what happens when you don't positively identify a target. It's just sad that a pair of our own pilots couldn't identify friendly armor.

[Sgt_Ox]

Ox I think you're missing an important point - at no time were the Hogs cleared hot on a target. It's a decision they made for themselves.
Oh boy

Here's an excerpt form articles relating to that investigation

"There was a complete investigation back in 2003 carried out by central command in cooperation with the UK," Lieutenant-Colonel Catherine Reardon, a US air force spokeswoman, said. "There were UK air and army LNOs (liaison officers) there. All the information was shared."

Major David Small, spokesman for US central command, said: "The inquiry concluded three main points: that the incident took place in a complex combat environment; that the pilots believed they were engaging enemy targets based on the best information they had at the time; the pilots followed the appropriate procedures and processes for engaging enemy targets.

"Because of these three things, the report deemed the pilots not culpable and, therefore, no disciplinary action was taken. The report basically concluded that, though the loss of life was tragic, it was indeed an accident."

that is from this article: http://www.csmonitor.com/2007/0207/p99s01-duts.html

Now there are other elements that can be debated but since it's not pertaining to exactly this topic it can be started in another thread

Edited (due to the disclaimer of profanity and pertinent information displayed on the dashboard) transcripts of the conversations can be found here: http://www.thesun.co.uk/article/0,,2-2007060131,00.html

And ultimately you'll find other articles relating to the charges against these 2 pilots have been dropped.

[Devil Boy]

It's hard for me to be on the defense of the pilots. It sounds as though there was aprehension on identifying the targets with the orange markers. One of the pilots questioned it a few times. If there was any doubt about the identity of the tanks on the ground they should have left it alone.

I will agree that in 2003, the front lines were very fluid and dynamic as opposed to how it is now, and there could have been some misinformation as to the whereabouts of friendly forces, but the decision is still left up to you before pulling the trigger to identify your target.

My verdict: Stupid Pilots

[twowheels]

POPOV35: "looks like I have a couple of vehicles in reverts at about 800 meters to the north of your arty rounds, can you switch fire and shift fire so you can get some arty rounds on those?"

What does this mean? The brits were being engaged already by artillery (arty for short).


POPOV35: "confirm there are no friendlies in this far north on the ground"
MANILA H: "that is an affirm... you are well clear of friendlies"

*thread ends*